Build a Strong Marriage Brick By Brick

Hi friends!

I’m so excited about my new series on relationships on the Create Today Podcast, and I’ve wanted to interview my dear friend Sabrina since before I even had a podcast! She met her husband when she was sixteen years old, and they have been married for 37 years. They’ve raised three incredible humans and have worked together for over 20 years running multiple businesses. I’ve always been inspired by their relationship and she shared so much wisdom in this episode.

Here’s the transcription of our episode if you’d like to read it!

Your primary relationship to your spouse, assuming it's healthy and good, it creates a lot of psychological safety. I was tough to please because not only did I want him to do it, I wanted him to want to do it. So that generation, that traditionalist generation, my dad had 11 children and never changed a diaper once. 

If each of you in your partnership, whether you have a business or not, just acknowledge that. Sometimes I think it's healthy to just float outside your body and kind of look at yourself and say, if she were your friend, would you be talking to her that way? You know, you just say that to yourself. Welcome to the Create Today Podcast. 

I'm your host, Karen Stanley, certified rapid transformational therapist and hypnotherapist. And my passion is helping women heal from the past and learn how to create the life they love one day at a time. And this show is all about how you can do just that. 

My guest today is the amazing, beautiful, talented Sabrina Porter. We've been friends for almost 30 years and she's always been an inspiration to me. You were five for so many.

But she's been my client for almost that long. And she has a master's degree in organizational psychology. She has raised three amazing kids. 

She taught at the college level before becoming an entrepreneur. She's worked with her husband, Reed, and partner for over two decades. And together they own and operate a private home building company. 

And that's how we met because, you know, my career for a long time was in marketing. And so I was able to be on their team and work with them hand in hand. And she also built a wedding venue and it's a gorgeous venue here and does beautiful weddings every weekend, operates that business. 

And they have three adult children. They're out of the house building their lives. Thank you so much, Sabrina.

Well, I'm so excited to be here, Karen. And I was thinking about how long we had worked together and kind of going down memory lane and 1997 that was that window. I actually have a vague memory of going to your house when your kids were really, really little. 

Yes. Oh my gosh. I was thinking, boy, we've been in this for a long time. 

Yes. Well, and you are also one of the original founders of Great Hearts Academy too. And that's, you know, it's what I love so many things that inspire me about Sabrina. 

But one of them is they're like, they looked around and said, you know what? I don't really like the schools around here. So we're just going to start our own. And now it's one of the most prestigious charter schools in the country. 

And they're all over the country now. It started right here with you guys. Oh, well that. 

Okay. Let me clarify a little bit. That's very, very sweet. 

No, I like my version. Yeah. I mean, that's very kind and sharing maybe more credit than is due. 

Oh, we had, we, our oldest son went to Tempe prep, which was the, it was kind of originated by some, some faculty at ASU. Oh, okay. And, um, and then there was another school called Veritas that was started. 

And those were really the two original schools. He went to Tempe prep and there was such an incredible demand for that kind of education, that great books, you know, doing the Socratic method. And because of that, we got involved to really help. 

It was to start great hearts, but also really just to kind of expand that model. And, um, so that's how, yeah, we, we jumped right in and, um, Reed especially was one of the founding members on the great hearts board. And we both served on the Chandler prep, uh, board for gosh, a long time. 

And I was, yeah, I was the, uh, president at the great at the Chandler, uh, archway, which was the elementary. So, right. Yeah. 

So we were involved with, with Chandler prep and Great Hearts for many, many years, many years, very happy that it's done well and that they have been able to offer quality education at no tuition, um, which is really important to us. So that was, it's amazing. It's like a private education at a public school price. 

Yes. It's incredible. Yeah. 

So it's a lot of work though. A lot of work. I bet. 

So for the children, the kids, yes, it's, it's no joke. They're working hard. Yeah. 

It's so cool. Well, I wanted to have her specifically, we could talk, I don't know, 10 different subjects today, but I wanted to have her specifically because I'm starting a new series on relationships. And, um, Sabrina and Reed met when they were 16 years old. 

They've been married 37 years. And I, I, I've always been inspired by your partnership, your friendship, your dynamic, the way that you work together. And, um, so first just tell us how you met, how we met. 

I don't even, I don't even, never even heard the story. Um, we were in the same biology class and yeah. And we, uh, he sat with another boy and I sat with another girl and there were just maybe some, you know, longer glances here and there. 

And I think our first date, um, well, we were also in the same math class and, you know, there's, there was only a few kids. We were all in kind of these honors classes at that time. We had a huge public high school in Utah and, um, yeah, our first date was skiing and yeah. 

So that was, um, a lot of fun and we've, we've enjoyed skiing many, many, many years together. So yeah, I think that our first, we met in biology class and, um, it was, I don't want to say love at first sight, but we definitely, you know, one of the things that I really remember about him at that age was that he was a person who was confident, but not cocky. And that was kind of unusual. 

It, this is the eighties and big ego, you know, boys who were athletes and, you know, kind of really thought they were all that. And, um, I just remembered that he had a much more understated way of presenting himself. So he was not how he kind of just showed up in the world more like, I know I can do it, but I don't need to let everyone else know that all the time, you know? Yeah. 

So that really was an, a quality that I liked from the get go as a kid, as a teenager. And all of these years, even like before you got married, did you ever break up for any period of time? Well, he, he was gone for two years to Guatemala, did a mission for the church. Yep.

And then, um, so during that period of time, I was going to college and did a study abroad in Spain. Oh, wow. Yeah. 

And so during that time, but you were just, were you still loyal to him? I around, you know, but not too much. Um, nothing serious. You knew, did you already know you were going to marry him when he got back? Did you know that he tends to always be the way planner out ahead person and I'm a little better in the moment. 

So I would say that, uh, yeah, I think we probably did know we were getting, would get married. Yeah. Wow. 

Yeah. Isn't that incredible? Yeah. As a matter of fact, when he returned, that was in January and we got married in March.

So he proposed just right away, right away. He's like, we're doing this. Yeah. 

Okay. I know. I always say he was sure enough for both of us. 

I think part of it is just that he he's, uh, he's kind of, all right, it's time. I'm going to get my life started. This is the next thing. 

And this is what I'm doing. And, uh, so yeah, he's a very good salesperson as you know, so he's so good, very persuasive. I always say you could sell ice to Eskimos, but it's really because he's, he's very, um, trust worthy, you know, people can trust him. 

Yeah. He's passionate about it. Whatever it is, right. 

It's not, he's not trying to sell you something that he doesn't think would be best for you. Right. He just really thinks that you need it. 

Exactly. He's usually right. Yeah. 

He's put, usually put a lot of effort into whatever it is that we're doing. Yes. That's awesome.

What do you think? I know we've got, we had a long conversation yesterday talking about this and where, how we wanted it to go. And I just want to know, like before we dive into our notes and you know, there's so many things that there's, you have so much wisdom that I, I think most of it, I'm just going to like, I'm just going to listen. But seriously, you're, you're talking about, um, I want you to start with the bubble. 

Is that a good place to start? Or is it later? I tried to organize it a little better than what we talked about yesterday. Just so that it wouldn't, you know, we were kind of jumping around a little in the conversation. And I, I was kind of thinking, you know, maybe as a preamble that I would think like, why, why are marriages and relationships so important? You know, why is it that, why is it worth the trouble? Because it clearly is a lot, um, you know, to commit to another person and to share your life and to have this, you know, to put all this effort into it. 

And so I was kind of really thinking about that. And I was telling you about that favorite quote I have that says, if you want, if you want to go fast, go alone. And if you want to go far, go together.

A hundred percent. And so I, I think that I really do believe that. I really believe that your relationships are so core. 

And of course your primary relationship to your spouse is really what it does is it, it assuming it's healthy and good. Um, it creates a lot of psychological safety. And I think that that psychological safety is, and you know, you have that in other relationships as well to all of the relationships you have do create help with that. 

And that safety in your mind is what I think gives you the strength to just do life, to take on all the challenges, to do all of the things you want to do together. Um, and I also really feel like it gives you, your relationships give you a why they give you a, you know, you can really handle any what, if you have a why. And so if challenges are coming along and you've got this really big why, you know, for me, it's the people I love. 

That's a big why for me, you know, it really is motivating and helps. I remember before I had children, um, thinking, you know, it seemed like everything was so full and, you know, our relationship was filling up lots of what I needed. And then after we had children, it was even more, it was kind of like, you know, these are my people and, and whatever we have to do, whatever we're doing, whatever challenges we're taking on, it's really worth it because it's, it's for all of us. 

It's for them. It's for us, you know, it gives you, it just gives you a much bigger why when you love purpose, meaning and purpose. It's like the, uh, Indigo girls have a song called the power of two.

You're really interested in the, I love that line. It's multiply life by the power of two. You can get, you can go so much further together as a team. 

If you're on the same team and rowing the same way as they say. Exactly. And we, I remember we were talking about selling a little bit ago and I remember the first year we got married. 

So I was 20, he was 21. And that first summer, it was the first summer. Yeah. 

The first summer to the second summer, I had open heart surgery, but the first summer we sold homes together. So we both got a real estate licenses. We were going to college and we sold homes together and we were just this team, you know, we would put our back then you had to put your little ad in the paper, you know, and we could afford to do like two lines. 

So we were doing, you know, like 600 Mo, you know, we'd get the whole thing down. And then of course we had to take shifts on, to answer the phone. We couldn't leave the phone. 

And then we would go to the appointment together and we would, um, we kind of divide and conquer. Usually I'd go with the woman and he'd go with the man and we would, we would just basically bowl them over. I mean, we would, we would, by the end of the night, we hadn't yet another cell, you know? So we were, we had this one summer where, you know, 20 years old and we've made like 16 sales together, you know? And it was great. 

Yeah. And we were, that's kind of the first time that I really think we both learned that one and one wakes way more than two, you know, when you're together and you're, you know, have each other's back and you're kind of working together, you can be pretty strong and powerful together. I don't, I agree. 

Do you think you alone by yourself would have sold eight? No, I don't think so either. I don't think so. And I think that it's just a, a thing when you both really supporting one another and you're kind of, I don't know. 

You feed off of each other, you have the same energy, you're helping each other. You got tag team when, when in life, you know, one of you is tired or sick or has surgery, you know? Yes. I love it. 

I love it. So those were just some, a few things I wanted to say about why, why is it worth it to do it? Because it is a lot and it is, you do have to put yourself aside in many, many, many ways. So let's talk about how will have you done? Yeah. 

How we were trying to think about how so many people that are, they struggle, um, in, in and out of struggling with relationships in and out of, you know, just that, that dynamic is a struggle for them. The fighting, they don't feel, you know, seen and heard and understood no matter how many fights or arguments or battles you like to say. Exactly.

Sometimes it's hand in hand. Yeah, for sure. So, well, I was thinking that, you know, I think sometimes I watched, um, love is blonde. 

I don't know. I mean, you don't like to refer to anything as specific. It was, it's a reality show where they don't see each other. 

Anyway, it's a reality show where they're trying to match up couples and, and they don't get to see each other. And one of the things that I noticed on it was the way that the people were talking about marriage. They were really saying, it's this thing I want to have. 

It's this thing I want to get kind of like you'd go and get it off the shelf at Target. I want to order it on Amazon and have it come in. And, you know, like I always say when the, you know, when they're looking on the dating apps, it's like, here's my list, you know, here's the list of the things that I need. 

And, and I think that, um, I think that it's really a misconception because you're just starting in the desert kind of, and you're building it, you're just brick by brick building it. So it's like everything in life, you just have, it's work to, you know, build it and one brick at a time. So I think you have to like, that's kind of a premise that you say, all right, well, I am kind of just doing it a brick at a time. 

Um, and, um, I think the most important message, which you'll probably hear me say a few times today is just that you can only control you. You can't control your partner. And so if something isn't going right, you have considerable impact and power and influence over the situation because you control you.

But I think we tend to often get, we want to say that the problem is outside of us. The problem is somebody else, right? The problem is that he's doing this and that, you know, I've got all these things that are happening and he hadn't done this and this and this. Someone else's fault.

You want it to be someone else's fault. Yeah. And I'd say more than any single thing, being able to take responsibility for yourself, um, is really huge in being, because your behavior, your thoughts, your emotions, your behavior is going to impact every situation you come into.

It's so true. Every situation. And so, but we don't, it's, there's just something in us that we don't want to do that. 

I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Did you have a hard time with that at first? Is this something that you got gradually better at? That's a good question. 

And I want to talk about that in early marriage because we've been married 37 years. So I sort of think of it as like, there was sort of that early phase, you know, for 10, 12 years. And then there's sort of like the middle phase. 

And now that we're sort of in this last phase, um, which hopefully is going to last a lot longer. Yes. But, um, that I think is a really good question. 

So I may just jump right onto that and just say that, um, I do think if you get married young, like we did and not, I mean, people get married at all different ages. So for us, because we got married so young, we had the sort of the challenge of you've got to grow up yourself as an individual. And there's a lot of tasks that are happening in that decade of the twenties and kind of early thirties. 

You're figuring out your identity. I wrote down a few things. You're trying to figure out what you're going to do for work. 

You're trying to figure out who your support system is. You're trying to renegotiate a new adult relationship with your parents. You know, you're really battling with quite a few things. 

You're trying to support yourself, cook food for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot of things that you're taking on as a young adult. 

And so if you mix marriage into that, you're thrown into what Karen and I were talking about yesterday. And I call the relationship bubble, the marriage bubble. It's a really good analogy. 

Well, it's because there are sort of edges to it, right? If you say, okay, I'm, I'm my own bubble and you're your own bubble, your spouse is their own bubble. And then you're saying, well, we're going to move in together. We're going to, you know, maybe you're not getting married, but you're moving in or you are, you know, some, it's getting serious.

You now have this bubble around you. That's the relationship. And, and I think that that whole first decade, when I think about like, wow, what was going on in that whole first decade? And a lot of it was negotiating that marriage bubble, the real or negotiating the real estate in the, you know, negotiating kind of, because of course we're in living in this modern era. 

And even though the eighties seems like the olden days, you know, there was still, you know, women wanted careers, people, you know, there was still a lot of, I think, power dynamics that had not been in play in the fifties and forties. So it was my recollection of that whole period was trying to figure out who got to say what was going to happen, you know, like in any given, in any given scenario, you know, and I think that that is, that continues in, you know, in the relationship, you have this marriage bubble, you're in there and you're trying to figure out how much room can I take up in this bubble with who I am and how much room does he deserve, you know, with his, his portion of this bubble. And, and since both of us, you have that two headed monster story that you told, you may need to tell that story.

I, you, you have to tell, I'll let you, I remember I asked her, I was talking about something. I'm always asking her about, you know, just for advice and just, you know, just love listening to her wisdom about relationships and everything. And somehow it came up and she, your mom said it was on your wedding day, right? Something around that time. 

Yes. What'd she say? She said, Sabrina, just know that the man is that head and the woman is the neck. And the woman's, the woman's the neck and the man tells him where to look.

And I, and my mom's not a real traditionalist. So this was a slightly out of character, but maybe she was giving it her best shot because she knew my temperament, you know? And I said, Oh mom, we're going to be a two headed monster. There's no way that I'm staying in the neck position. 

You already knew that. I knew that. Yeah. 

So self, um, aware and well, I don't know. I mean, I think I've always just had a strong, strong personality, strong personality, passionate opinions on things. Yeah. 

Yeah. So, and so does read. Yes. 

And so can you think of like an example? I'd love for you to just have a, tell us of an example of how, when you're thinking I have a bubble, this bubble and your bubble, how do you figure out what, how much room to take up? And then like a scenario where you had to work through that and you think of something like the specific. Yeah. I mean, I think a big one would probably be child care and child responsibilities.

I'd say that's one where, you know, we, we both, you know, during the first 10 years that I had chilled the years I was having babies, I was working part time, teaching college and, um, and he was working full time. So there were certain responsibilities that I was, you know, I was owning that much more, obviously I was doing more with that. And, and then as time went on and things kind of evolved, there still though is a need for an equitable, you know, division of that labor and, and that not just labor, but also love and care, you know, so time spent time spent and, um, and I mean, Reed, Reed's never someone who shirks responsibility or anything he needs to do. 

So it's not that I think, I think though that there was, I always say, you know, I was tough to please because not only did I want him to do it, I wanted him to want to do it, you know, so that, that was, um, you know, probably I'm sure that many people have felt that their spouse has wanted them to want to do something. I think that would be something where, you know, maybe there was in our relationship bubble, um, where I maybe felt like, you know, he needed to step up in that arena and give, give more time and energy and effort. And I think that that required negotiation. 

It required a lot of, you know, a lot of discussion. And, um, I think coming to agreement about the value of the contributions that were being made by both parties, you know, the, because the value of the contribution that you're making, I think, I think too often it, it can get kind of distilled down to things like money, you know, like people will say, well, you know, I'm making the money. So that means I shouldn't have to do X, Y, Z, X, Y, Z. And, um, and the other person maybe feels like, well, that's great that you're earning money. 

And that's a tremendous contribution to the family. But these other things are really, really, really important and valuable. And so it's, you know, it's important that you're doing those things too. 

So I think so many ideas, I'm sorry to interrupt so many of the things that we expect from marriage or think marriage is going to be is just, what's been modeled for us. And so I know his dad has already passed away. He would have been in his nineties or maybe even older than that. 

I know he's about 10 years old. And my dad, my dad's 87. Yeah. 

So he would have been late nineties, if not a hundred by now, um, he's passed away, but that generation, that traditionalist generation went, my dad had 11 children and never changed a diaper once he didn't not one time. So that's, that's also some, some of his kind of generational. So when you're raised by that same generation, that's the norm. 

And he's probably like, what are you talking about? What, what do you mean? I, I, I, I, I work. That's my job is to provide for you. And that seems completely reasonable to him. 

That's the only thing that was modeled to him. And that, yeah, right. I think that's true. 

And his, his mom and dad super sweet. And I think they did, they did have a fairly labor divided, like a traditional, pretty traditional. Yeah. 

I'm sure they did. I mean, she never worked. Did she? It was very rare back then. 

She worked very hard at home. I would tell you that. She did not have a job or a career outside of raising the family. 

She had a career prior to, prior. Oh, she did. Yes. 

She taught school. Oh, that's so cool. She was a school teacher and a coach. 

Yeah. Yes. She's very in Vermont. 

So yeah, it's fun to hear stories. As a matter of fact, they recently, she and my brother-in-law recently went to the school she taught at to just kind of tour it. And yeah, it was fun. 

Yeah, it was fun. But so yeah, I think negotiating that space in the bubble is, I don't know why I've thought of it that way, because in a way I maybe it's because there is the constraint of the fact that you've decided you are in this together, no one's going anywhere. So we need to figure out how to work this out.

Yep. And a story. Yes. 

And so I think, you know, just getting back to the concepts of what's going on when you're young like that, and you're trying to figure out who you are, and you're trying to figure out, they're trying to figure out who they are, what's important, what values do you have together? It's a lot going on. A lot going on. And then if you throw children into that, that's even more going on. 

Yeah. I'm not sure if it has so much to do with age. I think there's a lot more going on if you're from 20 to 30. 

Right. But I'm feeling like we all had that same thing. I didn't meet John until I was 40. 

Well, I didn't get together with him until I was 40. And so I think there are still some truths and some universal, you got to figure it all out no matter what age. No matter what stage your own bubble is at. 

Yes. Right. So if you're coming in and you're pretty developed, you still have to negotiate a lot. 

Because you just have a different set of things because you've been alone for a long time. Right. So it's just different.

But you're not trying to figure out who you are and your brain has already developed. It's just it's a different scenario. I mean, your brain's not even developed until you're 25-ish. 

Right. I mean, on average. So when you get married that young where it's a little bit nuanced, but still in the first five years of marriage, you still have to figure all of that out. 

Yes. Right. And you may have differing degrees of sophistication in your ability to negotiate that.

Communicate. To communicate it. Yes. 

Your preferences are a lot stronger, perhaps, if you're not 20. Right. Maybe. 

Maybe. Because if you've been on your own for a long time and doing things a certain way, it's just everybody has to navigate it is what I mean. Yes. 

It's probably really true. Yes, probably. Just finding the edges, finding the boundaries and then figuring out the turf, the real estate. 

How is this going to work? Who's bringing what? How are you how does this work? How do we divide the world and or share the world? Yeah. You know. Yeah. 

How do we how do we approach it? And I think I think a lot of it. The reason I say it's important about figuring out how much room there is for you to be who you are. Yeah. 

Is that there is always a little bit of accommodation that you have to do with another person. Right. And whatever relationship it is. 

I agree. So you're trying to figure that out and you're trying to say, OK, well, I this is important to me. How important is it? You know, like, say your music that that might be something that you think, how core a part of me is that to this as I bring that into this relationship? How much room is that going to need in this relationship? Yes. 

You know, you have to kind of figure that out. And when you and Rita are actually talking about these things, do you actually rate them? I mean, we were talking yesterday about, OK, if it's a 10 to you, do you actually talk about it like that? You say this is really a 10 for me or you just you just you don't really do you actually say it that way? Well, I think we're now kind of in such a later phase. Yeah, I don't I don't know that you need to do that. 

But I think maybe when we were younger, we were more verbal about expressing how important something was. Yeah. So I always feel like I'm so flexible. 

But I think that actually, I'm pretty flexible about 60 percent of things. But then that other 40 percent is not at all quite as flexible as not at all. And then that's OK. 

Yeah. Because everybody we all have our 60 percent. You're like we all have the 40 percent things that really matter to us. 

Right. And then and so you can work all that out. It's OK. 

You can work all that out. It's important for people to know that it is. I think I mean, I think a really big thing, you know, I was saying about, you know, you're only in charge of you. 

Yeah. Is that when you're working things out and you imagine, gosh, if the other person would just concede or if the other person would just agree to this or that, it's so much easier. I think if you really take it in, you really are thoughtful inside yourself about what it is that what do I really need? What do you what what do I really need? And not use that word loosely. 

You know, what do I need and what I want that completely different. And it is different. And I think sometimes as you're navigating that, it's easy to think you need more than you do. 

So and I don't know. I just think that if you keep focusing on what am I? What am I contributing to this situation? Personally, I want to be sure that I'm contributing. I want to be sure that I'm I think a big part of why Rita and I have been pretty, pretty happy together all these years is that we both we both really want to contribute.

We really like feeling that way. We really like feeling like that. We're holding up our end of the deal with even in business or, you know, at work, we always just feel better. 

We both feel better if we feel like our contribution is real and is enough. Yeah, that's an excellent point. I'm glad you said that. 

Because that yeah, I mean, most people think of it that way. If you really focus on what you are contributing, instead of wish that one thing were different, whatever, some habit that annoys you, or this one decision that he makes, or that this one thing that he likes, you're just, you're just gonna be suffering a lot. Suffering a lot more.

You are. Yeah. If you're wishing that they're doing that. 

But the antidote is to focus on what you are contributing. I love that. I think that's really good. 

I think the only the last thing I wanted to say about, you know, kind of that early stage is what I'm calling mental hygiene that I think we all as we grow up, we all have to learn to take responsibility for our mental hygiene, like our just like we take responsibility for the foods we're putting in our mouth and the TV we're consuming the kind of social media we're allowing into our world. You know, the ideas that we're kind of interacting with. And I think mental hygiene is sort of that how much time and energy are you devoting to things that make you feel worse? Like make you feel worse about yourself, other people, the world, politics, or you're spending a lot of time doing that. 

Your mental, the hygiene up there, it's not going to be very clean and happy. You know, so you're not going to be bringing your very best self into that relationship. If you've got a lot of really negative things, you know, just going on. 

I'm not saying there's not reason to never have a negative thought to, you know, there are reasons, right? A lot of challenges. A lot of challenges in this world. Yeah. 

Um, which actually I want that. I think that leads me to phase two. Oh, good.

Cause I think phase two is when you get, when we, I'm calling it phase two. Cause I kind of feel like that was, it was sort of like the, you know, I feel like climbing the mountain phase where you're, where you're working so hard, you know, you're, you're not really a beginner married person anymore. You're, you know, you're now into the full work mode of career and raising kids and, you know, probably buying a home and, you know, taking on financial responsibility and having stuff with friends and family members responsibly with family members is sort of like you got your big girl pants on and this is the real deal. 

It's go time. Yeah, exactly. You don't get a lot of Yeah, that's kind of the period of like it's hard work. 

It is, you know, you're, you're both working hard. And, um, and I think that during that phase, cause I'm combining it just because for us, that was sort of like a phase of life plus maybe a phase of marriage. I think so too, you know, because we really were partners in so many ways and partners in, in doing our family together and partners at work that we, I think both really had to, um, become a lot more efficient in how we thought and how we, um, interacted with each other and, you know, I think efficient and also positive. 

We had to really move to a position of strength and the only way to get through all this, to carry all this stuff we were carrying that you have to be in a mental position of strength. And the only way to be in a mental position of strength, in my opinion, is to have, you're only controlling you, you know, you're being, you're being pretty metacognitive about your, you know, metacognition is thinking about what the way you think you are developing habits that are really having quick turnaround time. When a problem comes at you, when something negative comes at you, you're having radical acceptance right away. 

Okay. This is the problem. You're not dwelling, you know, you're, you're going to turn around quickly and then you're going to move to, okay, what are the things, what are our assets? What are our liabilities? Let's be ready for the next problem. 

Yeah. Like you said, you're going to wake up, you're going to have 50 problems every day. Well, I'm ready for them. 

So that mental, mental strength. And I think if you have a relationship that's, yeah, that's connected and strong and you've got each other's back, you're five steps ahead in that arena. Yeah.

Being ready. And then did you find yourself being even in like the, the radical acceptance part, or did, were you, were you aware, like, were you, did you make a, like an executive decision or is it, you're just reflecting back going, this is what we had to do back then. Or do you remember saying, oh my gosh, we're in the, we're in it all. 

You know, we're going to have to come to radical acceptance really, really fast. And like, did you have discussions about that? And then we're going to have to, you know, just make decisions really fast and just keep us moving forward. Or is that just, is that just your nature or is it just what you did? I actually, I think it was maybe out of the, the relationship itself that we did have such a strong relationship that I think we just were more able to handle the level of responsibility and stress. 

I actually think that there wasn't, there wasn't like, oh, this is coming out at us. Now we have to hurry and hurry and go to get ready camp, you know, sort of more like maybe we, we were, I mean, Reid's incredibly strong person. So I think that, and also I always say he runs five miles every day and he gets up at 5am, he bolts out of bed. 

We have a rule. No, no whistling before seven, no jokes before nine 30. But I mean, he's like a morning person. 

So he gets up and does this big run. And then I believe that really sets his brain chemistry for the day. And so I think that's like a huge asset that we have on our team, you know, that he's got that kind of, kind of, um, mental, mental energy and strength and like is able to put himself into a positive frame every morning. 

Um, and I think, but you are too, was that intentional? I mean, we were, it is intentional. You, you, you were intentionally saying we need to be as positive as possible, right? Yeah. I don't, I almost think it's like the reverse, like we were that way.

And so then we could take on more challenge and then you had to be that way to be able to take more challenge on. And then you were that way, you know, it's sort of like a cycle that either you decide that everything that's coming into your world is awful and horrible and too much, and you can't do it. Or you decide, awesome, here's a challenge. 

I bet we can do this. I know we can do this. Let's do it. 

You know? Yeah. And so if you've got one way of thinking that you're using, then it, then it, as more responsibility comes, you're more able to take it in stride. Yeah. 

You know? Well, and if it's in anybody's listening that if that's difficult for anybody listening, you can cultivate that. Absolutely. You can practice that. 

And you have had, and the more practice that you have that, yeah. Habits are, you know, they can, you can stack enough evidence that it, nobody died, hopefully. And, you know, for whatever challenge it was, you know, it's, you, you got through it, you talked about it, you moved forward, you got, okay, now you're building that evidence and that self-confidence that, okay. 

So when the next big, huge bad news comes or big, huge challenge come, big problem, you can, it comes easier. I think this with reps, just like anything else. It's like a muscle in the way. 

Just like a muscle. It is. And I think the habits of thought, that's why I feel like having, having an immediate, it's a kind of a discipline and immediate when something comes at you and it's challenging, having that immediate look for the good, like what is there in this thing that's coming at me, that's going to be a growth opportunity, a way that I can figure out how to go around it.

What information am I learning from this? There's something in that thing that's coming at you that helps you get to the solve quicker and helps you not let it deregulate you. If you have these habits of thought that are just a little more proactive in the positive arena. Yes.

Yeah. So I, I've, I really do think that it's hard to know what comes first, your way of thinking, and then you just are able to take on more or you're taking on more and you're forced to start changing your thinking in order to cope. Could be either way.

Could be either way. But either way, practicing, looking for that good, looking for that growth opportunity, it takes practice. Some, some things can seem overwhelming and I'm not sure how I'm going to figure this out. 

Or, you know, some people, whatever it is, if your child is sick or if you have heart surgery, like you have had and John has had, that's, that's really hard. That's a very big challenge. You're like, nah, it was fine. 

I can't see your face. Yeah, it wasn't that bad. I think that, I mean, and I was younger too, but I do think that, yeah, I think it was horrible. 

Everything that happens to you in life, the meaning that you make of it is what it is. It's so true. It just is what it is. 

Like when I brought, I broke my hip skiing a few years ago and we had a lot going on and they were, you know, we were able to, um, get it. I had a hip replacement and that, and like day or so later and Reed had me back at the office six days later, you know, and had me all set up on the couch. I know. 

And, um, and we just held meetings in the lobby where I was laying, you know, and I just think that it, it does make a real difference how you, how much room you give it in your mind. How much room, how much real estate am I going to give this in my mind? And did you decide that? I'm sure it was very painful. It completely knocked you out. 

You had to go through surgery. What were the, some of the ways that you, you were able to get to that? What are we learning? How do we move forward? Like, how do you get to the positive so fast? Um, well, I, I think I just have had the good fortune really like as a child. So my parents were divorced and I had this really amazing outcome from that. 

And that, and I would say the big thing was they were very, very different people. And so I learned early, really early that you can love people who are really different from you. Like if you can think something different from someone and love them anyway, because if your parents think different things than at a young age, you have to figure out, Oh, okay, well, I agree with this, but this, but I agree with that.

And I still love the whole person, but so I think that in some ways that early sort of, I almost want to say separation of self, or it's kind of being able to kind of say I'm who I am. And I think what I am, I think what I think that I just feel like it gave a more, I mean, it could have been that, or honestly it could have, my mom's very positive, very, very positive person. So she can get into an old rattle trap car and go, Oh, well, this is nice. 

I used to have the color leather on when I was the first, this leather, you know, like the thing she'll notice, won't be the thing like, Oh my gosh, we're going to die in this. You know, she's looking as an eight track player. Isn't that something cool? I wish I had the titles, Lawrence Welk. 

So I don't know. You don't know what it is that makes acceptance easier, but I do think that having, having a quicker turnaround time of like, Oh, okay. This is the new thing. 

This is the next challenge, you know, and we're just doing this and it's just let time. It is what it is. Just let time go by. 

And I mean, Reid's very good about, um, if there might be something in the future that's going to go bad, going to be a problem, he always says, we'll just deal with it when it comes. And that way he doesn't give it any room. It's freeing up the room, the space in your brain. 

It's so good. It's such a good thing to remember. How much real estate am I giving this? Exactly. 

Especially like people who are hard, like your awful boss or your, you know, if you're giving them a huge amount of real estate in your brain, you're wasting that real estate. It could be, uh, it could be just something else like finding a new job. If you don't like your boss or updating your resume and starting a new business.

Yeah, that's great. It's such a great point. So, yeah. 

So I think that that is, um, I guess I don't, have we talked about negativity bias? I know we're talking about this. I do want you to talk about that. So you know what negativity bias is? It's this evolutionary thing that has been built into all humans that we notice things that are bad, much more clearly, and it leaves a much bigger impression than things that are good. 

So instead of looking out of our cave and seeing rainbows, sunshine, pretty daffodil, tiger, we just see tiger and you know, we hardly notice those things. So, um, and that's been helpful for the human species to exist, to survive, right? So I think that a lot of people have overactive negativity bias. I, I might even say that I think genetically, I'm just saying that the, the way your brain is naturally wired, you're more of a warrior. 

You're more noticing if something is going to go wrong. You're more vigilant in general, you know, that I think that we all differ in that. And I think that it's almost like you have to, you have to fight back against that negativity bias. 

You have to, you have to actively notice all the awesome things in your world and in your day and in your life so that your brain is in a constant state of I'm pretty good. Things are good. You know, I'm safe. 

Everything's going to be okay. And gratitude. And then especially when it comes to your partner.

Yes. So that's the point we want to make is that if you, if you are not, if you are only noticing the things that they're doing wrong and the things you're not liking, that's not going to be good. You're not going to make it. 

It's not going to be good. And if you're noticing and complimenting and appreciating the things they're doing right, not right, the things that you appreciate and the things that are important, you're grateful for grateful for, and you're appreciating them and you're making, you're noticing them that, that they will thrive with that. They, it's like putting sunshine, you know, it's, um, everybody needs to be appreciated.

Everybody needs to be appreciated. And, and so we have this negativity bias. So in some ways your spouse comes in, they hung their keys up where they were supposed to, they put their groceries in, you know, whatever they did all the things. 

And, but then they left their socks out. And all you talk about are the socks instead of, you know, so true. And you're focused on that one little thing. 

Is it really that important? It's really not that important. What about the other 12 things that he has done or said you're grateful for that are amazing, that are amazing, keeping your focus on that, keeping your focus on that. I even think actually it's good to do that when you're not together at all. 

Just like thinking, cause you're so busy. Sometimes you might not think or notice the things, just the awesome things about them, you know, that they have a beautiful singing voice and then, you know, you just, it's like this really incredible talent that it's important to think about that at another time. Right. 

And if you say, yeah, this is something I really admire. Yes. I mean, I think I really, I really admire my spouse. 

Yeah. I just really admire him. So I think that is helpful and I appreciate him so much. 

Right. So for so many reasons, so many reasons and sharing them and saying, try to share it as much as I can and telling, but now I will even more because you, because of what you said, I think is really important and I don't want to ever forget. I never want to be taken for granted. 

We, as people never want to be taken for granted, you know? And so you don't want to make, you want to make sure that your spouse never feels like he's taken for granted, not appreciated and just not, you know, just not loved or not that their best qualities aren't appreciated, aren't noticed. So I think that is a really big one. And I do think, and I keep coming back to what you can control. 

That's something you can control in spite of yourself. How am I thinking about this person? How am I talking to them when I'm around them? What am I noticing? Am I only noticing bad things or am I noticing that they're the things that bother me or I'm noticing the good things? And I think that's, that's really important. Now, something that's more advanced than that, like that's kind of one-on-one, you get up to two-on-one, you know? We're in the 200s now. 

200 level courses. Is that I think sometimes we need something from our spouse and we have to be insightful enough to tell them that's what we need from them. You know, like if, say, I might have a worry.

So I might have a worry about one of the kids or about, I might have a worry and I might say to read, okay, this thing is happening and I'm feeling this way. I'm worried about this. And his natural response might be to say, oh, you don't need to worry about that. 

Or you, you know, whatever his natural response might be, but what I might need him to do is something different than that. And it's really my job to tell him that, what it is that I need him to do. You know, to say, okay, I need you to tell me that it's not, it's going to be okay. 

I need you to say that, but then I also need this and this and this from you because that's, I just have to kind of look inside myself. What are you after here by sharing this thing with him and telling, unloading this thing onto him? What do you want? Do you want him to just soothe you? Do you want him to help him out? Tell him what you need so that then they can do that. And it doesn't end up turning into a little argument because you're in not a good place when you're saying the thing.

You're in fight or flight. You're stressed out about something. You're stressed. 

Exactly. And so while you're in fight or flight, there's no reason you can't say, I'm just feeling really overwhelmed. And so what I actually need you to do is this.

This is what, and then if they don't do it right, then you say, try again. I need you to do this. Yeah. 

Oh my gosh. You first have to have the awareness of what you want. What do you, that's so smart. 

So you first, you have to ask yourself, what do I want out of this exchange of words? I'm going to share something. Even if it's not a huge challenge or a worry, I'm sharing, what do I really want? And then why, why don't we, why are we letting our spouse guess? And then they're in trouble. Yeah. 

It's like, wait a second. I don't even know what you wanted me to do here. I thought I was doing what you wanted me to do, talking about it or saying it's fine or don't worry about it or whatever it is. 

Right. But that's so smart. So you have to have the awareness first. 

What do I want him to do? What do I want from this exchange? Yeah. And then tell him it's, if you can, it's really helpful. Yes. 

Yeah. So that then it doesn't go sideways. Sometimes you just need a hug. 

Exactly. Literally all I need. Sometimes I just need a hug. 

I need you to tell me that that other person was wrong and I was wrong. Sally's a bitch. I just need you to agree with me, please.

My sister's going to be like, why did you choose that name? Sally? If she's listening, it's just the first name that came up in my brain. Why'd you have to choose that name? I love it. So yeah, they're really your friend. 

Um, so, okay. We talked about mental strength, but yeah, kind of basically mental strength I think is, yeah, really figuring out how to get, do your own things that you need to do. So you are ready to come to that relationship in a positive way because if the relationship is positive, that is like strong. 

What's the opposite of kryptonite? Oh, you know, like it's the, you know, it gives you the, yeah, it's just the, it's the ingredient when you are coming together positively. So we did a lot of, we've done a lot of productive work together and, um, that's pretty energizing. You know, even if you just like build a, I always say at the wedding venue, I say, well, we should give people a test where we put them into a room and put an Ikea, a piece of Ikea furniture and say, you guys have to put this together before we'll do a contract.

We wouldn't make it. I'd be like, I have a handyman for that. I do. 

We don't build any, neither of us build anything. Well, you could both. Lance does. 

I call Lance. It's so funny. But maybe if you had a different, do something, you have to have a different kind of test that you do together. 

But, and Reed always says, well, if they got that piece together, then we could put them in a second room and we'd give them another piece of furniture, but then we'd send our teenagers over and criticize them while they do it and see how that goes. You would, you would go out of business. Nobody would get married.

You don't want to spoil it for them. Just let them live in their honeymoon phase. Don't let them imagine what it's going to be. 

Don't tell them what it's going to be like. I know. I do have to say a funny thing. 

My mom said to me the other day, we had this cute wedding invitation. The couple was really young on it and we were looking at it and she's so cute. And she looked at me and said, we won't tell them what's coming.

But anyway, yeah. So I do think that working together, because you are working together, even if you're not working in a business together, you're running a house together, you're sharing finances together, you're accomplishing things together. Sometimes you're raising children together, but you're often working together. 

And so coming up with good ways to divide, understand the other person's strengths, be okay with that, accept your own package, you know, because your package, you bring certain talents and skills and abilities to situations. They bring different talents, skills and abilities and figuring that out. So again, that's probably part of the, that's part of the work bubble, you know, figuring out those things and who's going to be making certain decisions or running, who takes care of the checking, who does those things. 

I think you're running a family, even if you don't have a business together. And I was firsthand at this too, because when I first was started working, it was just read. So you didn't come to the, into the picture until a couple of years. 

So I probably actually didn't meet you in 97. So it was probably around 2000 or somewhere around early 2000s when you came into the scene. And I remember you saying, well, I'm, I'm more creative, you know, I'm just, that's true. 

That's not a knock on your partner. Yeah. You know, Reid's completely capable of doing it all himself, but you are more creative. 

And, um, that's just what you bring to the table. It's, it's, it's just a fact. And so if you can just decide that for each, each of you in your partnership, whether you have a business or not, just acknowledge that actually, this is a really big strength for him. 

You know, like I always joke, I always tell everybody, my, my husband, you know, he's the, uh, he's the, the big guns. Like if I'm having a problem with something like a vendor or a, you know, a company or somebody, something's happening where it's not going well, they're not delivering what they're supposed to do or whatever. And like, all right, I need the big guns. 

I will, I will have him call because he's so good at negotiating. And, uh, he's been doing that for so long, just like Reese has. I mean, he's so good at it. 

Why would I have mental anguish about something or negotiating something where my partner is so brilliant at that? And that just frees my brain. Thank you so much. He takes care of all of it. 

It's handled, it's done. I don't have to worry about it anymore. As an example. 

Yeah. You still have the things that all of the things that you're doing that are on your head too. So yeah, I think having that and being gracious about it, it's really important. 

It is. Acknowledging everybody's strengths. Yes. 

Like you're saying, keep it on the positive. Keep it on the positive. And we all have weaknesses.

We do. We all have weaknesses and that's actually what I was going to say in my perfect segue. Yes, exactly. 

That, you know, we've kind of, I, I, I'm not going to say we've graduated out of this, this hand to hand combat phase, but I do think it's, you know, our kids are grown and they're adults and they're building their lives and, and we are, you know, more in the emptiness phase and we're still partners and we still work together, but we don't have the same number and level of challenges. Although these last seven years have really been something with the, you know, COVID. Yeah. 

And I mean, there's been a lot, you know, but we've made it through. Thank goodness. But I was going to say that I think a big part that you get kind of in the phase we're in now is really being so much more comfortable saying we are flawed. 

We are just flawed people and that we are, you know, just kind of accepting ourselves for the flaws we have and being, you know, saying this is, you know, because a lot of times you're, when you're younger, I think you're defending, you're sort of trying to say, Oh no, I, you know, this is why, and this is why. And I think now, have you seen the movie? Heaven Can Wait? No, it's really an old movie and it has Warren Beatty in it. It's like from the seventies. 

And I don't know why we watched it a couple of weeks ago. And it's about this football player who is Warren Beatty and he, Beatty, I guess you said, and he is exercising and he's riding his bike through a tunnel and a car is just about ready to hit him. And an angel comes down and takes him out of his body early. 

Right. And so his body gets hit by the car and he dies. Right. 

He goes up there to, to heaven and he's like, Hey, what's going on? You know, and they say, well, you've died. And he, he says, I don't, that's gotta be wrong. You know, I'm playing in the Super Bowl on Saturday. 

That's got to be wrong. And he, they look, Oh, actually it is wrong. You have, you had all these athlete reflexes and you shouldn't have been taken out of your body. 

So the, the angel who did it, who's, you know, it's this error that he's done now. He has to find a new body for Warren. So anyway, this long story, but it's, I just love this idea. 

So he goes, he finds a body for him and Warren Beatty goes down into the body. Right. And he's like, it happens to be someone who's a little older than he is. 

And he's so cute. The way he views the whole situation is sort of like, okay, this is the package I've got this body. It's, it's not too bad. 

I can, I can get it into shape and I'm going to end it. You know, it turns out he's like a billionaire. So he's going to go buy the football team so that he can go play on the football team because he wants to do this. 

But the funny part about it, then the part that I love is that he's so, um, accepting of the package he's got, like the package of the body that he gets with all its flaws, whatever the flaws are that he's got, he's just like, okay, this is the package I've got. So these are the things I need to do to work within this package to get it to the point where maybe it could do this thing that I want to do. And I think that that, I just like that idea because I think a lot of times part of why we want to externalize things outside of ourselves and say, well, that's the reason why this didn't go right. 

Or that's the reason it didn't go right. It's because we don't want to look at ourselves and say, Oh, that's really my package. You know, it's my set of flaws and my set of weaknesses and my brain chemistry and my, and so I think accepting your own stuff, whatever it is, I think it does really help us in our relationships because then we can come with a little more humility to the conversation. 

Yes. I mean, I totally agree. And we try to, I, I have, uh, I was just writing about defensiveness because at the root with what we're really doing, if we're defending the way we do something or the way we think, or it was something that we screwed up. 

Um, if we're being in defense of something that our partner is saying, it really is just self, it's just your self worth. You feel like you're being attacked, but you wouldn't feel like if you're being attacked, if you really truly knew that I, and this is the package I come in and I'm just screwed up sometimes or like, well, and I'm okay. And it's okay. 

It doesn't, everybody has different strengths and it's, you know, which ones yours are and that's okay. And then with those, then whatever the weaknesses are, you can always work on your weaknesses if you want to, but you know, or you can just really magnify your strengths if you want to just accept it and, or say to your partner, you know, I know I'm like, like, here's a weakness I have. I, when people start talking, sometimes my mind wanders.

And so, especially if Reed's doing like a really long thing, sometimes my mind will wander and he'll have to see it again. And so, um, and he's always been really wonderful about it. He's happy to just repeat it. 

It's great. I'm so lucky. He doesn't take it personally. 

He doesn't take it personally. He doesn't feel like he's under attack because he has confidence. I am. 

I guess so. He's pretty good at that. But I would say that that's one of those flaws that I have that could be really irritating to some, someone. 

And I think instead of me saying, I, I have to sort of come with a little more humility to say, I, I'm really sorry. I know you just said this, but could you just say that one more time? And instead of what, you know, trying to help, help them understand that, you know, you've got this problem, you know, you know, you have it and you know, you did it again. You know, which I'm, I think I have ADD who knows, but you know, they didn't diagnose that when we They didn't. 

But yeah. And I also remember, I just remember random things about being around you. And so this memory just popped up, speaking of teenagers interrupting you all the time is that we're just in the parking lot and Kate, she must've been, I think she was driving. 

So she was probably like 15 or 16 and she comes running out. I think school just ended and she was kind of coming over to do something or exchange or get a car or, you know, they're always in and out all over the place. Yeah. 

Rushing. Um, and you were having a conversation with someone else and she was running up, mom, mom, mom, mom. And you were like, just a minute, sweetheart. 

And I was like, wow, you're so calm. You're like, but you, you said it, you, but you were intentional about saying things, help, help the other person out, whatever the relationship is, whatever the other person is, help that person out just a minute, sweetheart. And I was like, oh my gosh, I was just like, you know, that funny, the things that you remember these little teeny snippets, snippets of somebody's life. 

And I thought that was really beautiful. And that's why it stuck out to me because, because that's what kids do. People do, they're excited about something or they need keys or money or something. 

They, then they only have five minutes. That's just, that's life. And so, but you're like, oh, just a second. 

Like you, you weren't finished yet, but you didn't reprimand her or like, you know, raise your voice and you weren't, you weren't annoyed at all. It was just like, oh, that's just, that's just what kids do. It's just like, just one second. 

I'll be right with you. I do think it's interesting that you say that because I do think that as you think about your package and as you're self-reflective about it, I think in some ways, because I was with my cousin in the Faroe Islands recently and she was, said something about how I was taking the, you take everything in stride. And I was thinking to myself, I shouldn't get that much credit for that because I don't have to do anything special for that. 

So I do think that in some ways you, in your package, like, I don't know, maybe just the way my neurology is or something, I don't get as worked up quickly. It takes a long time for me to get worked up, but then when I get worked up, I'm really bad. Yeah, exactly. 

But I do think that it's, it's nice to see your good, not your good things, see your adaptive strengths as well as the things that are not that adaptive. Yeah. So you have a more, like, sometimes I think it's healthy to just float outside your body and kind of look at yourself and say, would you be talking to yourself? If she were your friend, would you be talking to her that way? You know, you just say that to yourself. 

Because I think sometimes our thoughts can be pretty harsh about ourselves. Yeah. And so if, if, if you're more accepting, I guess, of the whole package, like, and I've always, I've always thought people do come in packages. 

I always said that to my kids. Some people come in packages, you know, they have this part and we might, they might not love that thing about them, but they have this other great thing. And it's a really smart whole person. 

And then you remember, and then it helps you be kinder and more considerate. You're like, oh yeah, I've got things in my package. I've got things in my package. 

Yeah. Everybody does. It's okay. 

He does. You bring that to every situation, every conversation. You're going to be so much happier. 

Yes. And happier. Yeah. 

Yeah. And I think definitely bring more, more peace to your, your interactions with each other. Higher life. 

Yeah. So I think I was going to say that I do think it's, it's kind of each person's job to kind of recognize their own, their own things that they need to work on. And it's also their job to recognize the awesome things about their partner. 

You know, it's not really our job to recognize the things that are not so great about that person. That's their job. You know, it's their job. 

So I think if we keep, keep our jobs in our mind, then what you're bringing to the relationship is a lot more positive. And you're, I think you're able to, cause we've talked a little about conflict. I know I'm jumping and jumping, but we've talked about conflict, but we haven't talked too, too much about what do you do to build? What do you do to build, build, build, you know? Cause I think the building is really important and the building is happening when you're bringing your, your best self and you're showing up as your best self, then all the fun is happening, you know, the work and the fun, but the work is, the work can be really positive and satisfying too.

Yes. So the fun and all of that. So that's why I've wanted to spend more time talking about what can you, you control you. 

And in every relationship, you really just have power over yourself. So true. When I talk to single women, you know, I'm coaching them or it's like, there's one common denominator in all of your relationships. 

It's you. Yeah. That's gotta be a really have to work on yourself. 

It's so easy to try to just blame somebody. Right. I'm going to write someone off or have one thing that you don't like up next.

Oh, I'm, you know, it's, he's horrible because of one thing that whenever, you know what I was thinking about with life pursuit, it really is. But the blame, I was thinking that the, the problem with blaming other people for things is that it, it strips you of your power. So, and here's how I mean that if, if you see the problem is something that's under your control, then you have the ability to work on it. 

If you see it as someone else's fault, then you, it's outside of you. You have no control over that other person. You only have control over yourself. 

So if you see, you know, and that's why I say, you know, the habits of thought, if you are content, you know, doing kind of daily forgiveness of things that happen, you say, well, like say your spouse comes in and you know, they're late for dinner. Like we were talking about if they're late for dinner and you think to yourself, well, he just doesn't care. And he's, you know, never going to prioritize this family and work up means so much more to him. 

And then you, you know, you come at him with that energy, that's going to be great. And then he comes back and says, look, this was the situation I was dealing with at work. And this is what I had to do. 

If instead you kind of have a mentality of forgiveness, like, all right, I'm going to take that, that that's what he said. And that's what he meant. And that's real.

That now you've, in terms of how you feel about that person who you love and you want in your life, right? You feel a lot better about that person. So you've just given that gift of forgiveness to yourself. And how many times, how many evenings are ruined because we just came into the situation with an idea or a belief that wasn't true. 

We blamed the other person. We've already in the negative bias. And if we would have just left all of that over there and just come into it, like, is everything okay? Are you okay? Yeah. 

Just that, I mean, it's like mad. Just what no. Are you? Yeah. 

Yeah. What's going on? Like, and now, you know, we can, we can text each other and, you know, I'm running late and, you know, usually we have more communication now, but lots of things. Yeah. 

But I used to not have that. We didn't, you know, um, people's minds are blown, but you know, my, our kids are about the same age as yours, our older ones, you know, 26 and 29. And she just went to Europe and I'm like, you know, I went to Europe with no cell phones, there was no internet. 

Yeah. I had a book. I had a Rick Steve's book. 

I had to go find, buy a phone card if I wanted. I don't think I did call anybody. I didn't call my parents. 

I was in my twenties or whatever. They're like, Hey, go have fun. We'll see you in a few months. 

Yeah. She was like, I don't even know how you would do that. I'm like, yeah, good thing you don't have to. 

I really think that that concept of being able to control, being able to observe your thinking patterns is a skill that takes some working on. It's not something that you just immediately do. Have you read the book, um, man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl? I'm rereading it right now. 

That's really weird. It's a good one. It's so good. 

I just started it again, like two days ago. It was, I read it in college and I remember it being this, just like, you know, this idea that, you know, something stimulus could come at you and then you could try to create a little space before you responded and then you could choose your response more thoughtfully. I think that that is because children don't have that capacity.

It's like something, a kid comes up to them on the playground, punches them, and they have their immediate response, whatever it is. They cry, they punch him back, whatever that person's auto response would be. And that, that it's really a much more sophisticated process to get to that point where you say, Ooh, that thing came at me and now I need to really be thoughtful about how I want to respond to that. 

Even possibly saying, can I have a minute before I get to respond to that? You know, smart, like really trying to make that space bigger. And that's what he said, that that is what defines humanity. The ability to do to pause, to pause, to make space, to not allow, in his case, to not allow those prison guards to make him feel what they wanted him to feel in that concentration camp. 

And that was pretty profound. That's so profound. It should be required reading.

I think so. In addition to the John Gottman book. Yes.

It's so good. Yeah. But because if anybody, if you could actually pull that off, if you could accomplish that mentally and have that mentality in that kind of a circumstance, well, I think you can do it anywhere. 

I mean, that's the worst possible circumstance. There is, there is nothing worse. Yeah. 

You're starving to death. Your debt. Freezing.

Family's been killed. It's most horrific. There's nothing worse.

Most horrific circumstance. Yeah. And he, and he did it anyway and he actually could do it. 

So we all can, and we can learn how to do it too. That's right. We can learn how to do it.

And just practicing. We can learn how to do it. Yeah. 

I mean, it's, it is, it's a lot, but it's, I think, I feel like they need to figure out how to get that into curriculum for young people at an earlier age. They do. Because it is a really useful, I think they're changing curriculum now. 

I mean, they're talking about, you know, children, you know, learning to name their feelings and things that, you know, that's sort of a little newer. I hope so. Yeah. 

All kinds of things. And I think you've read Mindset, right? Carol Dweck? Yes. I think Mindset versus Fixed.

And I, and I know she's, I know a lot of that coursework is being implemented in schools, which I think is very exciting. It is. Yeah.

Yeah. That you can, you can decide you're going to be some... I can get better. I can get better at anything.

At anything. Yeah. I know.

I may not be on the NFL. Yeah. But I actually can improve my football skills if I wanted to.

If I want. Yeah, you could. You really could.

Yeah. You could improve anything. Rita, we says, and I think it's a good thing.

He says, um, if he's talking about, well, now that, that's something I can work with. You know, like there, if there's just a little kind of like the Warren Beatty, like, okay, I can work with this. You know, there's some little thing in what the structure of whatever it is.

I can work with that. Okay. You know, here's a piece of it.

That's okay. We can work with that and we can build on that. Smart.

And it's, yeah, exactly. And I was going to say one other thing. It's a little bit random, but it's such a good quality that Reed has is that when he's thinking about something that he wants to happen in the future, he fills his mind with visions of that thing being good and successful and real and happening.

And he doesn't, he's pretty strong about not letting things punch holes in that vision. That's like, uh. Filling your mind up with it.

Napoleon quote said, all I see is the goal. All obstacles must give way. It doesn't even see them, you know, and I was like, I was just selling that to somebody.

I read is like that. He is like, I don't care what you throw at me. I see the goal and that's all I see.

We're going to just keep working. You can throw whatever dodge balls you want at me or whatever all day long. It doesn't matter.

Exactly. When the person at the city says, well, I don't see how we're going to do this because of X, Y, Z, X, Y, Z. And he says, glad you brought that up, you know, and then he just kind of takes him down the path of here's how we're going to go around something we can work with. I love that.

Exactly. So smart. It's true.

It's true. Well, we could go on for hours and hours and hours and hours, but extremely interesting. I know it's so, you're so, you're so much wisdom.

That's impossible to get everything into, you know, just an hour show or whatever it's been, but really fun. I am so grateful. Is there anything, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you just must share for everybody who's in relationships and, you know, the thing that you've learned that's helped you so much or helped you that we didn't cover? I want, I don't want to wrap it up until.

I think the one thing is that you have a lot of love inside of you and you've got to get up, figure out a way to get that love outside of you and onto your loved ones, you know, on get, get that, get it out there. Like there it's, you're racing it. It's in there, you know, let's get that love out there.

And because feeling, you know, expressing your love, sharing your love, showing your love, it's all, it's all, it's good for you. It makes you feel great. So good.

Thank you so much, Sabrina. Welcome. I just really appreciate it.

It's been very fun for me. Been amazing. And fun to think about these things the last day or so.

Thanks so much for being here, everybody. Okay. Thank you for being here and listening to my show.

If you got any value at all, it would mean the world if you shared it and left a review. Remember the only way to create the life you love is to take it one day at a time. Create today.

God bless you.